I attended a half day conference yesterday that dealt with trends that were impacting the American church. It didn’t take long for me to become frustrated with the “list” of trends seeing that it did not include what I believe to be the most crucial “trend” to understand – that being the shift towards a post-Christian culture.
Without a clear understanding that the church in America no longer sits in the dominant seat of culture, the church is totally incapable of making the necessary missiological and ecclesiological changes. Below are two short videos of Michael Frost speaking to the importance of this topic.
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For further study of the post-Christendom shift I still find Stuart Murray’s Post-Christendom: Church and Mission in a Strange New World to be a great resource. For a brief (23 pages) overview of Murray’s work you might also check out this article: christendom-murray.
Thanks for posting these Brad. Sorry that whatever event you were at left something to be desired. Like you, I think this trend must be reckoned with on the par that Frost is talking about here and that Hirsch talked about at Verge – we need to think about those that will not come. But, I also want to be mindful (and I would offer the same critique of what Frost is saying here in this 2nd video as I did to Hirsch in a blog post from last week) of the fact that just because Christendom shaped churches are “reaching” a dwindling Christendom population does not mean that they are all fine and good as these guys seem to be communicating. There remains the issue of what kinds of disciples Christendom-shaped churches yield. Their stance just seems surprisingly pragmatic doesn’t it? Am I missing something? I’d love your thoughts on this.
Brad – Thanks for posting these videos. Hope these and others that are coming in the upcoming weeks will be helpful. Thanks for what you are doing here and through your training.
JR – I appreciate your critique of Frost and Hirsch at this point. I would encourage you to put that question to them directly. However, I can say that they are nice guys that–want to be nice guys. I have seen Hirsch at an event where he was pushed on this issue and with a sheepish grin he shared that he was seeking to be gracious. They are interested in “fanning into flame” what the church can be. Where people are not interested in participating and/or learning from this conversation, they are ready to move on and work with those that are disoriented. I think this will come through more clearly in some of the subsequent posts.
Thank you to you both!
almost an M – Alan was actually good enough to comment on the post I offered on my blog after I DM’d him. I replied to his comment, but he hasn’t responded to that one yet. My impression of Mike and Alan has always been the same yours – nice guys who really care about the church. My contention is that this care will need to continue to carry over into critiquing those church systems, structures, and practices that facilitate nominal, if not outright consumeristic, Christian faith. Looking forward to future posts that address this sort of thing, thanks.
I perceived your frustration and felt it as well. Thanks for your post.
JR, sorry for the slow response. I hear your concern loud and clear. I too believe the critique needs to be on-going and consistent, but at the same time I want it to be redemptive.
I work for a network of about 50 Baptist churches in KC, and a larger group of about 400 in KS and NE. While the majority of my time is spent in the area of church planting (thank you Lord!) I still have the opportunity to see the “good, the bad, and the ugly” in our existing churches. And while I spend some days very frustrated by the systems/practices of many of our existing churches, I am also encouraged by the serious questions/reflection that is taking place within some of those same churches. There are several very exciting shifts taking place in some of our churches in the area of community engagement that involves serious, sacrificial ministry. I believe we are experiencing a bit of a snow balling affect taking place that I pray will lead to significant missiological/ecclesiological changes. The conversation in these areas has certainly broaden over the past year or so; which I am very thankful.
I say all of this to simply say that I think (or maybe hope is more appropriate) others are beginning to experience some of the same incremental, yet substantial, shifts. I too want to continue to challenge the consumeristic, attractional/ex-tractional ways of many of our churches, but if I don’t also find the good that is taking place in some of those same churches I will most certainly lose my mind
Jeremy, sorry you could sense my frustration, hope I didn’t come off as a jerk. I tried hard to keep my mouth shut most of the day
It was nice to meet you that day.
Brad, that’s really encouraging to hear, truly, thanks for sharing.