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	<title>Comments on: The Forgotten Ways &#8211; Chapter 1</title>
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	<description>moving towards a missional mindset</description>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://missionalchurchnetwork.com/the-forgotten-ways-chapter-1/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Something inside me came alive as I read, &quot;We wanted to transform from a static, geographically located church to a dynamic movement across our city.&quot;  and &quot;We wanted the majority of community members to become active and directly involved in the journey of becoming like Jesus.&quot;  

I am tired of trying to diagram and flow chart these dreams into reality. They must be modeled and fleshed out.  But am I willing to lead the charge in fleeing from &quot;comfort&quot;, &quot;convenience&quot;, &quot;safety&quot; and security&quot;?  

I think our community is beginning to see the picture Alan is painting, but we need more passion in action to make it real.  

Brad, I love your use of the Home Depot slogan. Churches needs to own that! Thanks for the great summary of Chapter One!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something inside me came alive as I read, &#8220;We wanted to transform from a static, geographically located church to a dynamic movement across our city.&#8221;  and &#8220;We wanted the majority of community members to become active and directly involved in the journey of becoming like Jesus.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I am tired of trying to diagram and flow chart these dreams into reality. They must be modeled and fleshed out.  But am I willing to lead the charge in fleeing from &#8220;comfort&#8221;, &#8220;convenience&#8221;, &#8220;safety&#8221; and security&#8221;?  </p>
<p>I think our community is beginning to see the picture Alan is painting, but we need more passion in action to make it real.  </p>
<p>Brad, I love your use of the Home Depot slogan. Churches needs to own that! Thanks for the great summary of Chapter One!</p>
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		<title>By: BradB</title>
		<link>http://missionalchurchnetwork.com/the-forgotten-ways-chapter-1/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>BradB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Georges

I like your observation concerning the hierarchy of good works and the Mother T. vs. Billy G. dichotomy that was never intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Georges</p>
<p>I like your observation concerning the hierarchy of good works and the Mother T. vs. Billy G. dichotomy that was never intended.</p>
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		<title>By: Georges Boujakly</title>
		<link>http://missionalchurchnetwork.com/the-forgotten-ways-chapter-1/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Georges Boujakly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brad,

Thanks for your work in summarizing this chapter.

Being generous to the church growth movement is a good thing as Rustin says.  I am feeling generous today, too.

Yes the CGM sought to focus on winning more lost people to the cause of Christ. They saw this as the task of the church. They sought also to win many believers to work for Christ&#039;s casue. Their motives were to deepen the faith of workers by winning the lost. It was drilled into me that the work (discipline, though not spoken of in these terms) of evangelism is the best way to grow spiritually. (BTW, we still &quot;suffer&quot; from a hierarchy of &quot;good works&quot; with winning the lost being better than feeding, etc... the poor and needy; and service being better than contemplative living. It&#039;s Mother Theresa verus Billy Graham when the &quot;versus&quot; was never God&#039;s intent. 

In motivation one cannot fault the CGM. Its goals  in doing what they saw the task   of the church for their day were to accomplish the 5 comparatives of Hirsh and the TEMPT ideals for healthy groups. If one looks at the CG principles and sees them as a means to an end (Hirsh&#039;s 5 points and TEMPT) it is not hard to show historically the failure (in part) of the attempt. I say in part because many of us came to Christ because of the zeal of the CGM. Some deepened their faith in their zeal to win the lost. But a general failure to do life as a deepened journey of faith with Christ is a serious matter. CGM&#039;s truncated view in this matter is glaring back at us today. However, to fail trying is good. 

Now a new chapter is being written by God that will hopefully accomplish the goals of Christlikeness in being and doing and reach the ideal for which the CGM was aiming at. God is still unwilling that any should perish.
 
Hirsh&#039;s correctives are well thought out in the midst of a praxology of faith. They are also ontologically true to the aims of God in history. Yet, as time passes, there will be another movement that will bring further corrections to Hirsh&#039;s work... and this ad infinitum... I admit it is hard today to see how improvement can be done on Hirsh&#039;s principles.

Each generation of Christ followers is called by God to follow Christ as best they understand, and further the work of the kingdom as best they understand. May our generation be as faithful in trying as the CGM did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,</p>
<p>Thanks for your work in summarizing this chapter.</p>
<p>Being generous to the church growth movement is a good thing as Rustin says.  I am feeling generous today, too.</p>
<p>Yes the CGM sought to focus on winning more lost people to the cause of Christ. They saw this as the task of the church. They sought also to win many believers to work for Christ&#8217;s casue. Their motives were to deepen the faith of workers by winning the lost. It was drilled into me that the work (discipline, though not spoken of in these terms) of evangelism is the best way to grow spiritually. (BTW, we still &#8220;suffer&#8221; from a hierarchy of &#8220;good works&#8221; with winning the lost being better than feeding, etc&#8230; the poor and needy; and service being better than contemplative living. It&#8217;s Mother Theresa verus Billy Graham when the &#8220;versus&#8221; was never God&#8217;s intent. </p>
<p>In motivation one cannot fault the CGM. Its goals  in doing what they saw the task   of the church for their day were to accomplish the 5 comparatives of Hirsh and the TEMPT ideals for healthy groups. If one looks at the CG principles and sees them as a means to an end (Hirsh&#8217;s 5 points and TEMPT) it is not hard to show historically the failure (in part) of the attempt. I say in part because many of us came to Christ because of the zeal of the CGM. Some deepened their faith in their zeal to win the lost. But a general failure to do life as a deepened journey of faith with Christ is a serious matter. CGM&#8217;s truncated view in this matter is glaring back at us today. However, to fail trying is good. </p>
<p>Now a new chapter is being written by God that will hopefully accomplish the goals of Christlikeness in being and doing and reach the ideal for which the CGM was aiming at. God is still unwilling that any should perish.</p>
<p>Hirsh&#8217;s correctives are well thought out in the midst of a praxology of faith. They are also ontologically true to the aims of God in history. Yet, as time passes, there will be another movement that will bring further corrections to Hirsh&#8217;s work&#8230; and this ad infinitum&#8230; I admit it is hard today to see how improvement can be done on Hirsh&#8217;s principles.</p>
<p>Each generation of Christ followers is called by God to follow Christ as best they understand, and further the work of the kingdom as best they understand. May our generation be as faithful in trying as the CGM did.</p>
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		<title>By: BradB</title>
		<link>http://missionalchurchnetwork.com/the-forgotten-ways-chapter-1/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>BradB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good point Rustin, after reading your comment and looking again at the contrast of the two lists I was reminded of the Home Depot slogon; &quot;You Can Do It, We Can Help&quot; which I think fits well with a focus on the expectations placed on the participants, but the typical church based on church growth principles has it the other way around, &quot;We (the Church) Can Do It, You Can Help.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point Rustin, after reading your comment and looking again at the contrast of the two lists I was reminded of the Home Depot slogon; &#8220;You Can Do It, We Can Help&#8221; which I think fits well with a focus on the expectations placed on the participants, but the typical church based on church growth principles has it the other way around, &#8220;We (the Church) Can Do It, You Can Help.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rustin</title>
		<link>http://missionalchurchnetwork.com/the-forgotten-ways-chapter-1/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Rustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In the &quot;typical church growth principles&quot; list, the focus and goal is clearly numerical growth.  In the second list (innate purpose of the church), there are clear expectations placed on the participants (not just that they show up on Sunday!).
And while neither approach has to be exclusive from the other (tying to be generous here), it is a fact that you focus on what you measure.  It&#039;s hard to feed the beast of church growth and still have time for the practices that the second list require.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the &#8220;typical church growth principles&#8221; list, the focus and goal is clearly numerical growth.  In the second list (innate purpose of the church), there are clear expectations placed on the participants (not just that they show up on Sunday!).<br />
And while neither approach has to be exclusive from the other (tying to be generous here), it is a fact that you focus on what you measure.  It&#8217;s hard to feed the beast of church growth and still have time for the practices that the second list require.</p>
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